Why Are All The Rich Guys Moving To New Zealand and What Do They Know?

Erik: Joining me now is Mark Williams, who is a partner with Lane Neave.  Mark is not only an immigration consultant who processes investor visas, but  he's actually one of the architects of New Zealand's Active Investor plus Visa  program. So Mark, it's great to have you on the podcast. I wanna start at the  high level. 

We've heard a lot of news stories and so forth about famous people, Hollywood  movie stars flocking to New Zealand to get residency there. A lot of our  investors are familiar with Peter Thiel, a very high profile fund manager who  didn't just get a in an investor visa. He actually got citizenship in New Zealand  leads some people to wild-eyed conspiracy theory, speculation. Do these people  know something? Are they going there to survive World War iii? I don't think  that's what it's really about. So why don't we start with why are all of these  people flocking to New Zealand for investor visas? 

What is the appeal and what's driving the sudden rush of interest?  

Mark: Typically, this seems to be two trains of thought around looking at New  Zealand as an option. First train of thought is that a lot of family offices that we  deal with identify that it's probably good to have assets or funds outside of one  single jurisdiction. 

So it's seen as a way to diversify. Investment holdings into an alternative  jurisdiction where there's maybe potential jurisdictional risk. Basically, I guess  the old adage is just not having all your eggs in one basket as they say. And the  second common piece advice that our clients seem to be receiving from family  offices. 

Is that it's wise to have a Visa option banked in the event it becomes necessary  or desirable in the future to be able to utilize a visa like New Zealand at  relatively short notice without having to go through what can sometimes be a bit  of a lengthy process.  

Erik: Let's talk about how this process works, what it takes to qualify for it. 

There's two different ways to qualify different investment levels depending on  what you're investing in. Suppose that I want to get myself a New Zealand visa  and I think it's important to point out this is not just a, something that lasts for a  

year. If you. Go through this program after a couple of years, you get a New  Zealand permanent resident visa.

That's good for life, if I'm not mistaken. What does it take to do that? How do  you qualify? What's involved?  

Mark: Yeah, there's two subcategories under the Active Investor plus policy.  The first is what's called the balance category, and that's for investors who wish  to take a fairly soft entry into New Zealand's economy. 

It requires. An investment of 10 million in New Zealand dollars in the country  for a period of five years. That investment can be placed into fairly passive  investments such as New Zealand government bonds and the main applicant in  a family filing is required to spend 105 days physically in New Zealand during  that five year investment term. 

So that's the first general category balanced. The second category is the growth  category. That has by far been the most popular. Around 80% of filings have  been moved into that category. That requires investments that are of a higher  risk in nature. Things like venture capital, private equity, private credit, and  direct investments into New Zealand companies. 

That's a three year investment commitment, and the main applicant is only  required to spend 21 days in New Zealand during that three year term.  

Erik: Okay, so for a lot of our audience who thinks in US dollar terms, that  works out. If you convert those New Zealand dollars to US dollars, a choice of  either about 5.8 million US dollars equivalent in government bonds or some  other very low risk investment, or much more likely about 2.9 million US  dollars into some kind of either venture capital fund or something that invests in  growth in New Zealand's economy. 

After two years, if you spend I think it's 21 days of visiting New Zealand in  those two years, you end up with a permanent resident visa. That's good for life.  Is that just for the investor? Does it cover their family as well? If so, is it just the  spouse? Is it children? Who gets this thing?  

Mark: The growth category's a three year commitment, so it's 21 days over the  three years, so it works out to be on average, say a week, a year. 

But you can clock up all the days in one single visit if you wish. The policy  focuses on a main applicant who is required to make that time commitment.  Secondary applicants such as a person's partner and dependent children can also  be included in the application. They the secondary applicants are required to 

come in within the first 12 months of residency to activate their residency, and  then after that, they have no time obligation whatsoever. 

So as long as the main applicant. Spends those 21 days here, in that three year  term, they're able to then upgrade their residency visa to a permanent visa. And  you're quite right now that can include all the individuals who are included in  the application. And the permanent residency visa is indefinite, meaning there is  no ongoing investment commitment or any other commitment required. 

So in theory, if someone invests them for their funds for that three year period.  Subject to what they invest in. At the end of that period, there are no  immigration restrictions. So they could technically take all of the funds out of  New Zealand, never return and then 10, 20 years later decide to buy one way  ticket travel in here as permanent residency visa holders. 

So a lot of the people we are dealing with. Like securing the option because not  only does it right, create a setting or a visa for the entire life of the, individual  investor, but also children included in the application will have this permanent  re residency visa for their entire lives. So a lot of our clients are looking at long  term succession and like the fact that they can secure a permanent visa for their  children, even at a very. 

Early age that will be valid for their entire lives.  

Erik: So let's talk a little bit more about the 21 day visit and so forth. Basically,  if I want to get myself, my spouse, all my dependent children, the right to move  to New Zealand anytime they want to. So it's a call option if the world really  were to take a turn downhill if there was a risk of a global war or something.  New Zealand is one of the safest places on earth because of its physical  location. It also has a ratio of people to natural resources that's very low. So in  terms of competition for natural resources, if you really got to a Mad Max kind  of situation, it's a very good place to be. 

You can basically, for a. Little less than a 3 million US dollar investment over a  period of three years. You can earn that unlimited lifetime call option for you  and all your family members. And the only thing that the government asks of  you beyond that investment is to visit the country and kind of check the place  out. 

That can be a single visit of three weeks, or it could be several visits that, you  know cumulatively. Total up to 21 days. What's the rationale, what's the reason  for having that and how do people usually spend that time? 

Mark: Yeah. The rationale for having that a desirable setting around 21 days is  to make it manageable. 

Many people obviously have poor time at hand and it's just, it's New Zealand  kind of sneaks up on people. People would say 21 days is not too significant  time. They come in. What the data shows us in New Zealand and perhaps also a  reason why we issue a permanent residency visa at the end of the investment  term without, demonstrating any ongoing obligation or commitments is that the  money tends to stay here. 

It grows over time. It diversifies, and the more time that people come into the  country, the more integrated they get and the more the typically more funds  flow and they increase their commitment. Into the countries. So it's seen as  desirable from an external point of view where you can commit and obviously  move funds. 

But typically what we do see is we do see the money re remaining here and  people actually spending more time as they integrate in New Zealand society,  enjoy their time here and spend, have, an incentive to spend more time. I think  it's fair to say too that the, if you look at the categories, people tend to score  success in these categories in terms of the amount of capital that's be coming  into the New Zealand economy. What's missing from that is the extent of the  human capital or the value of that to New Zealand. So we're talking about  obviously some very sophisticated. 

Often very influential investors who not only invest their capital but integrate  into our society. They have offshore international connections, which New  Zealand can utilize. And we have quite a few people who are venture capital  investors who are making quite significant contributions to, early stage  companies down here just because of their experience and their capability. 

Erik: Mark, I want to congratulate you and the New Zealand government for  the design of this program. I've evaluated quite a few of the Golden Visa  programs around the world. I think this program is superior in many ways to  almost all the others that I've looked at. There is one wrinkle, though in the  design of this that I want to ask you about, which is a story I've heard a couple  of times now from immigration consultants who help people get these visas is  the investor applies for this thing. They make their investment. They're granted  the visa they now have to make their their 21 day visit. A lot of them will do  that in a single visit to knock it off, as you said. And frankly, from what I've  heard, many of them come with an attitude coming in of, okay, this is a burden.

I have to go and spend these 21 days. I don't really want to, it's a long ways  away. I'm gonna do it. About halfway through those 21 days, their immigration  consultant gets the phone call that says ok we can't believe this. We've  discovered this place called Queenstown. We just can't imagine any place being  more beautiful. 

We've got to have a home here, but the realtors must be confused 'cause they're  saying we can't buy one. Call 'em and tell 'em who we are. We've got these  active investor plus visas. Surely, even though we don't intend to become tax  residents, because we're really doing this for optionality now that we've seen  what a beautiful place this is, we wanna buy a home here. 

So we've got that home ready to go if we ever decide to move here, and we'll  just use it as a holiday home, spend a week or two a year here, they're not  allowed to buy it. That actually is the truth there. The realtor's not confused.  That's the law. Why in the world if the government is frankly trying to seduce  people into falling in love with New Zealand, by having this 21 day  requirement, why wouldn't they allow them to buy a home? 

Mark: Yeah it's a. I guess a long, complicated history in terms of New  Zealand's restrictions around buying residential property in 2018. Due to some  offshore speculative investment into the country into our residential property  market restrictions were put in place where individuals could only purchase a  residential home here if they had a residency visa, and they either were or had  intention to become tax resident here within 12 months. 

We, however, when the government was looking at mechanisms to increase  foreign direct investment in the country. They ask a simple question, what  mechanics are missing or what do we need to change to facilitate, increase  foreign direct investment and there were three inputs from the private sector on  that. 

The first one, what was the visa or the previous Visa was not up to spec to be  competitive international, in international stage. So that was the first thing that  was reviewed, changed, and this is the current policy we've got in contemplation  of that. The second part of it is that we advised that people, if you're wanting to  integrate people into New Zealand society, encourage them to spend more time  in New Zealand. 

Then they really should have the comfort of having their own home here. Two  rationales for that. One. If you've got a property in New Zealand, you're likely  to spend more time, so therefore the chance of integrating is higher. And also, 

of course, if you're investing in New Zealand, you want to be comfortable in  terms of your stay here rather than having to move around hotels. 

Second rationale around that was that if individuals have got property here,  they're likely to invite friends and those friends coming to New Zealand for the  first time may also fall in love with the country. And that may lead to a visa application made. So the current policy has been reviewed and that is about the  change as legislation being introduced in Q1 next year, which will basically  confirm that if individual holds one of these active investor visas they will be  permitted to purchase a single residential property in New Zealand or buy land  and build a home in New Zealand as long as the price is in excess of 5 million  New Zealand dollars. And they do not need to become a tax resident to do 

Erik: okay. So this podcast is going to air on New Year's weekend. So from a  planning standpoint, anybody who's starting now, if they're about to go through  the process of evaluating New Zealand working with you or another firm in  order to get that active investor plus Visa, by the time the Visa's been granted  and they're making their trip to New Zealand. 

The law will have been changed and they will have the option. At least that's  what's expected. If the law goes through that they will be able to buy one home,  but they're not allowed to buy a dozen homes and flip houses and do that kind of  thing. You don't want that sort of speculation. But to buy your own personal use  residence, that's going to be changed, it sounds  

Mark: yes. That's more or less a certainty so the coalition government have  reached a deal in terms of this legislation coming in. Those requirements have  been set. The legislation was supposed to be introduced into the house in  November. However, this is a very busy government. They're introducing a lot  of legislative changes at the moment. 

So it's been delayed. It's likely to come into force in, in Q1, so yes, if you've got  someone who's say starting on January, by the time they've moved through the  process. Completed the investment. Then we're expecting this policy to be in  place where they can then access New Zealand's property market. 

Conservatively what we are thinking is that the policy should be in place by one  April. However, it just depends on the legislative priorities. It's already, it's been  bumped back a little bit because of the priorities. However, discussions with.  Has recently indicate that this certainly is something that's going to be  introduced in Q1, and it's designed to actually accelerate.

And further incentivize further applications under the policy. When the  government made the announcement, they're making the changes and stipulated  what they were you, within a week of that notice, we onboarded quite a few  new applications from people who saw, the ability to purchase a home was a  trigger for them to actually commit and invest under the setting. 

The theory around. Having that property as a draw card has been proven already  and we've got multiple investors who are at various stages. Some of 'em already  have their residency visas. Some of them we're still preparing filings, but they  all have the intention to purchase a home here once the legislation is in place  and they're able to do  

Erik: and listeners stay tuned. Later in this podcast, I'll have another interview  where we'll go into the real estate aspects of moving to New Zealand in much  more detail. Mark, I wanna come back and stay focused on your specialty,  which is the visa itself. I want to talk about how. Long it takes to do this, and  frankly, I think you guys are doing a fantastic job because I've been through this  a couple of times myself with other golden Visa programs. 

Normally there's a lot of red taping, bureaucracy, and just a mountain, a  ridiculous mountain of KYC background checks. Private investigators have to  be hired. All kinds of things have to be involved in getting a golden visa in a lot  of countries. When I talked to another immigration consultant and they told me  they were turning these visas around, in some cases in three or four weeks, I  said, no, don't tell me the date when they first acknowledge the application.  When you actually get the visa and they said, no, we're actually getting Visas  issued in a matter of a few weeks. Is that really true? And how are you guys  managing to do this? Frankly, so much more efficiently than most of the other  countries that offer Golden Visa programs? 

Mark: When the policy was set through and worked with the government, one  thing we raised is that, if you're aiming to create the best investment visa  product available internationally, then you have to have a very swift process to  do that. So the government actually scaled up personnel internally before this  policy released on the 1st of April to achieve that, generally speaking. 

It takes around two to four weeks for the documentation to be prepared and we  typically file applications, which we term decision ready. So really there should  be a few questions, if any, coming back. When we were filing in April and May,  I can tell you we could file one of these applications from a a good jurisdiction  and we were getting approvals within as little as three to five working days from  submission.

That has pushed out a little bit due to the volume coming into the system. So it's  fair to say at the moment, from filing, I think people should expect preliminary  approval. Within one to two months. And assuming there's no other  complexities and then from there, individuals have six months to actually  transfer their funds to invest, to then secure that, that visa. 

So a lot of resources at the government side have been put in place. To actually  create what is hopefully a very efficient, fast process. And if you think about  that, it's logical because if you are wanting foreign direct investment to come  into the country, then the quicker you process those applications, the quicker  that money lands and goes to work. 

So the, yeah, the processing times at the moment, it pushed out a little bit  because of the demand Now that's come into the system. However, it's still  fairly fast in our view based on alternative jurisdictions.  

Erik: I predict that backlog is going to get even bigger because I think it is the  best program that exists anywhere worldwide, and it also happens to be a  country that's absolutely a beautiful, amazing place. 

So just to summarize all of that, if a listener of this podcast, here's this New  Year's weekend, says, wait a minute, $3 million US investment, actually less  than that. I put that to work for three years in a venture fund where I'm gonna  actually make a decent return, hopefully, and I end up with my entire family  having a lifetime call option to move to New Zealand if they want to. 

If they call you after listening to this podcast, they want to go with that  program, it sounds like by April 1st, when the law is expected to change around  purchasing real estate, they've probably got the visa in hand by that point. Is that  realistic timeframe?  

Mark: It's realistic if they move quickly. 

However, if we take a step back in terms of looking at the design of this policy.  The prior duration of this policy a few years ago brought in around a billion  New Zealand dollars into the economy per annum. And that was the aim was to  achieve that standard and that work, the math works out to be around 200  applications. 

Per annum. However, as of the end of November, eight months in, there's been  just over 450 applications already made. So it's well subscribed. If we continue 

to see that momentum, we do believe applications all tend to slow. That said,  we've had some very fast approvals through recently aswell. 

So I think the, this Visa product hasn't reached maturity in the market. And what  I mean by that is when you design investor visa products like this  internationally, it takes around two years for that to reach maturity, where it's  very well known. Internationally. So we think we see the demand is actually  increasing over time and will continue to increase over time. 

But we're hoping, the people that are applying Q1, they should. Expect quite  swift processing times, but that certainly does depend upon how many  applications are being made. We've got multiple applications under  management here, which we're preparing to file. We're onboarding weekly and  we just don't see that demand stopping. 

It's been extremely busy, pretty much from the 1st of April.  

Erik: Mark. One more point I want to cover is we've discussed the immigration  law requirement, which is a three year commitment to this program. Over that  time, you've gotta spend 21 days in the country. But if you're choosing the  growth option, it's probably gonna be something like an investment in a venture  capital fund. 

Now, most venture capital funds, as our investors already know, have a longer.  Commitment period than that. Is that true in these investments? And what do  people need to know in terms of, I suppose if they went for the larger  investment in government bonds, they would be done after three years. 

I'm guessing that although they may have met. The government requirement to  get the visa after three years, they probably still have a longer lockup than that if  they chose a venture capital fund. Is that right?  

Mark: Yes, that's right. So taking the growth category as an example, it's a  three year immigration related commitment, however. It depends. The actual  investment commitment depends on the instrument entered into. So if you're, if  people are looking at venture capital, obviously those legal investment  commitments will exceed that three year term. There are, however. Alternative  instruments within the growth category, which do offer liquidity, around year  three or four. 

Private credit, for example is one of them. But it is a common misconception  where people confuse the fact that what's just a three year commitment, that's it. 

But it does depend on what you are committing you are committing to. But like  I've said there, the growth category is designed to channel funds into various  investment options. 

We have people who are focusing just on venture. We have people have a  spread venture private equity. And then we've got, private credit and some other  development funds where infrastructure developments are being put into the  country, which have liquidity options. Most people look for liquidity at the end  of the investment term if they're not familiar with the country. 

That said. I've said previously very few people end up withdrawing once they've  got, confidence in the system. They've spent some time here. So the investment  class under the growth category is always under active review. It may well be,  by the time list is prepare and file applications. 

There may be other more diverse investment assets available under the system.  It's an ongoing piece of work around that. But definitely it is. Yeah. A common  misconception that people have is that it's three years in and out. It certainly  does depend on the investment instrument that you're entering. 

Erik: Well, mark, I can't thank you enough for a terrific interview, but before I  let you go, obviously some of our listeners may be interested in this program.  Your firm, Lane Neave is not only a, an advisor who helps people get these  visas, but you're one of the designers of the program. So needless to say, you're  highly expert on this. 

If someone is interested in pursuing this, how do they contact you?  

Mark: Yeah, certainly probably email is the best contact for us. But yeah, we  are, I'm an immigration partner, so I'm actually a I guess an attorney in New  Zealand, so a little bit different than licensed immigration advisors. And we're a  full service law firm in addition to the immigration aspects. We also handle  property transactions, commercial, corporate investments, the whole suite of  services typically required to manage one of these applications. Yeah, like I  said, email is probably the best. My email address is  

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. Happy to hear from everybody, anybody who  wants to discuss this further. And we tend to set up teams or Zoom calls with  people to get 'em across the details to allow them to make fully informed  decisions before they move forward with with the process.  

Erik: And we'll put that email contact in the research roundup email, so  listeners, you'll be able to find it there.

Or if you don't have a research roundup email. Again, it's  

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. listeners, I was surprised in talking to Mark off  the air to learn that really the main reason that people are flocking to this visa,  there's quite a few of them. It's primarily about the interest in New Zealand. 

It's a beautiful place. It's a potentially, if the world took a turn in the wrong  direction, it would be a great place to move to with your family. They don't  seem to be pursuing this visa for the sake of the four year tax holiday that's  offered by New Zealand to new immigrant investors. I think the reason for that  

is nobody knows about it. 

We're going to break that story next In my interview with Graham Lawrence,  who is a tax advisor in New Zealand, will find out about that four year tax  holiday, which I don't think most people pursuing this visa are even aware of.  That's coming up next. 

Joining me now is Graham Lawrence, managing tax partner for New Zealand at  Acclime, which is a global tax advisory firm. 

Graham, it's great to have you on. Our listeners have heard about the active  investor plus Visa from Mark. A lot of people as Mark described, are really not  intending to move to New Zealand full-time. They're going to New Zealand or  they're making a visit to New Zealand for the purpose of obtaining what  eventually becomes a. 

Permanent resident visa that would allow them to come to New Zealand  anytime they want to. What, if any, tax implication is there just to getting the  visa? Is there a tax obligation if they don't move to New Zealand and they've got  the visa?  

Graham: Yeah. Thank you Eric. For putting, for inviting me onto the show. 

I guess to answer that question, if people are looking to apply for a Visa and not  move to New Zealand. The tax implication is essentially nothing. New Zealand  just taxes their investments that they make in New Zealand and they don't seek  to tax their worldwide income.  

Erik: Okay? So if they made an investment in order to qualify for the active  investor, plus they took $5 million, put it in a New Zealand fund.

The income that they make from that investment will be taxable in New  Zealand, but any of their other global income is not taxable in New Zealand. Is  that an accurate summary?  

Graham: Yeah, that's correct, Eric. And the tax rates are relatively low and in  some instances the tax can actually be a 0% tax rate. 

Erik: Okay, now I wanna move on for people that would consider moving to  New Zealand to something as far as I can tell, very few people know about,  which is New Zealand offers a four year tax holiday to what are called  transitional residents. What's a transitional resident who qualifies for this, and  what are the details of this four year tax holiday? 

Graham: Yeah, that's a good question, Eric. So a transitional tax resident  person is essentially someone who has not come to New Zealand and become a  New Zealand tax resident for the previous 10 years. And what the rule seeks to  do is exempt your worldwide assets in liabilities for a period of four years,  really just to enable you to come to New Zealand, settle in. 

And give you four years to reorganize your affairs so that you don't get  essentially a tax surprise.  

Erik: Okay? So that's the intention. But I'm gonna go out in a limb here and say  I think that there's a profound value for some global investors. Now, I don't  think this helps Americans or Japanese or. 

Eritrean very much. I'm not sure there's a whole lot of wealthy Eritrean to worry  about, but those are the three countries that are going to tax those investors  global assets or global income based on their citizenship, regardless of where  they live. So for those people, I don't think that this particular rule has any  profound advantage, but for Canadians or Western Europeans. 

If you are willing to move to New Zealand, physically, take up residents in New  Zealand, pick up and leave the country that, that you were born in. As I  understand this, for the first four years, you would have essentially the same  benefits as moving to a territorial tax jurisdiction where any income that you  make in New Zealand, you get a job there. 

Sure. You gotta pay income tax on that like everybody else. But all of your  global income from investments would be completely exempt from taxation for  the first four years. That seems to me like a really big deal, and I was expecting, 

when I spoke to Mark, I was expecting to say this is the reason everybody's  flocking to New Zealand. 

It's because of this tax holiday. Mark said, no, actually, that's very uncommon.  A lot of people don't even know about it. Most people are. Pursuing the active  investor plus Visa because they wanna have optionality to come to New  Zealand later, or because they want their kids to have that lifetime visa grant,  which, would hopefully benefit them, give them more flexibility of what they  might do in life. 

Is this an undiscovered gem here and am I understanding it correctly in terms of  its implications for people, let's say from Canada or Western Europe who could  move to New Zealand and essentially be, tax exempt on their global investment  income outside of New Zealand for the first four years? 

Graham: Yeah, let's, that's a great summary, Eric. Look, I'd love to say as a tax  guy, this is the reason why people are coming to New Zealand but it isn't, mark  is absolutely correct. People are coming to New Zealand because of the, you know, the friendly environment, the open spaces, the beautiful landscape. 

But then what they do understand is there is actually a significant tax advantage  to actually moving to New Zealand. And, the four years is a hidden gem. And  then post those four years, there's even more surprises. New Zealand does not  have. A broad based capital gains tax. 

It doesn't, tax shares, doesn't tax a lot of real estate. Obviously there's some  exclusions around that, but we have a very good tax system here in New  Zealand.  

Erik: Now this is something I was really fascinated to learn about because my  first thought being a skeptic and something of a cynic at heart was, okay, if  they're teasing you with this four year tax holiday, there must be a real Gotcha. 

Afterwards, in the fifth year they're gonna, they're gonna nail you with a really  heavy tax. Actually, the opposite is true, is, I understand that it's called FIF it's  not really a capital gains tax. It's not really a wealth tax. It's a hybrid between  the two. But the Effect of it, as I understand it, is you are fully taxed on the first  5% of gains on your global income. 

So if you're a, an aggressive investor and you have a great year and you make  40%, yeah, you're gonna pay a 39% tax on the first 5% of gains that you made 

in New Zealand. But. The next 35% of gains if you had a 40% year is, I  understand it is basically tax free. Am I in, am I interpreting that right?  

Graham: Yeah it's a really complex area, this FIF or foreign investment tax  regime. 

But if I would've taken an example, someone who's moved to New Zealand, you  post their four years and let's to say they've got some shares in Apple. So the  way the rule looks at it is on the 1st of April, you take the market value of those  shares. You just return 5% of that as taxable income. 

So you pay tax on that 5%. You don't pay tax on any gains, any dividends. And  so essentially, if you're making more than 5% on those Apple shares during the  year being capital gains or dividends those are all tax free. From a New Zealand  point of view.  

Erik: Now what happens if at the beginning of the year you take that 5% and  it's not a tax of 5%, it's you take 5% of the value of those Apple shares. 

That's the presumed return that they think you might make, and you would be  paying tax of whatever your marginal tax rate. The maximum is 39% on that.  That 5%. So it really works out to about 1.95% of the asset value of the Apple  shares is the maximum tax you're gonna pay. What happens if it's a down year  

and you lose 10% because Apple shares go down that year, do you still pay tax  on that 5%? 

Graham: Yeah, that's where it hurts Eric. We are talking about a paper tax  here, so in down years. Irrespective whatever the value those shares is on the 1st  of April. So if it's down 10% compared to the year before you're still paying tax.  

Erik: Okay, so it is effectively a form of wealth tax, but it's not on all of your  assets. 

It's on stocks and certain other qualifying assets. And if you know it sounds like  it's 5%, but if you multiply the 5% by the mo, maximum marginal tax rate of  39%, which you actually get is a 1.95%. Wealth tax on your overseas stock  shares. What about things like overseas real estate and other types of investment  that are not directly in financial markets? 

Graham: From a New Zealand point of view, we do not have a capital gains  tax across the board on real estate. So the first premise is that you won't be  taxed on gains point of view. A couple ways to explain when you do get taxed 

on them would be if you're in the business. So if you're in the business of  buying and selling real estate, you will get taxed on it. 

Or if it is residential real estate. If you are buying and selling within two year  period, at the moment, you will get taxed on that game. But outside of that, New  Zealand does not seek tax capital gains on real estate.  

Erik: Okay. So it really is, and I'm gonna make a prediction here. I think what's  going on is New Zealand is such a beautiful place that people are flocking to  New Zealand because it's, it's an amazing place to go and see the countryside. 

I don't think people know about this. I don't because I, when I lived in Hong  Kong full time, I met lots of Canadians, lots of Western Europeans both Hong  Kong and Singapore because their territorial tax jurisdictions, meaning that they  don't tax your offshore income. A lot of people were moving. To those countries  just because they were high net worth investors, most of their income WA was  essentially tax free. 

They only had to pay tax on the income that they had inside of Hong Kong,  which was typically minimal. I don't think that community of global high net  worth private investors knows that there's a deal in New Zealand. On, it's an  English speaking first world country where you can live in an absolutely  beautiful place and really not be taxed at all for the first four years. 

And after those first four years, it still sounds to me like it's one of the best tax  regimes anywhere in the world. Am I overstating that?  

Graham: Look, I don't think you are. We are, New Zealand is one of the few  countries without a broad-based capital gains tax for starters. We offer this four  year exemption that you've explained really well. 

I think to add to that when I travel and present on this matter, people are  surprised that, we don't have a wealth tax, we don't have an inheritance tax, we  don't have a payroll tax, we don't have a social security tax, and on top of all of  that, New Zealand has a vast network of what we call double tax agreements  with other countries. 

From a, an exit point of view. A lot of the high net worth people that we look  after, they're looking at, when they come to New Zealand, that's great, but these  people are really smart and they wanna understand if they exit, what does it  mean also? So these double tax agreements allow us to plan really easily in 

terms of if they do potentially exit, how do we exit and how do we minimize  any implications on that side? 

Erik: And that would be particularly relevant. As I said before, the real benefit  of the four year tax holiday is mostly for people who are not American or  Japanese, but for people who are American or Japanese, you don't want to have  to pay tax in two countries. So you've got the agreements with both of those  countries that you're not gonna get double taxed if you're paying US taxes and  New Zealand taxes there, there's gonna be a deduction on one side or the other,  so you don't get taxed twice.  

Graham: Yeah, that's right Eric. And we look after a lot of American Japanese  clients and what I would say is you bang on those agreements, allow those  investors to be taxed relatively low rates and rates that allow a full tax credit  back in their home country. So there is no double taxation so long as you look at  what you're investing in properly and apply the appropriate rates.  

Erik: Now, I heard a rumor that the government has looked at this and has  realized that the four year tax holiday is such a good deal, that there are some  people that have come for four years and left just. Before the end of the fourth  year, there's a rumor that the government may be revisiting the rules, trying to  figure out how they could encourage those people to stay permanently, maybe  making the deal even better than it is now. 

Any truth to that or do you know any more about that?  

Graham: There is some truth to that and we've been working with the  government on those rules. So those rules are currently contained in a tax bill,  and that will be passed. At this stage in probably March 26, there's still a bit of  discussion going on. 

We've, we've gone one step forward and a couple steps back, if that makes  sense. So we've made a positive step forward on the rules but there's still some  work to be done. Around those rules. But really what they're looking to do is,  instead of the 5% tax that we talked about earlier in this interview, they're  looking to bring in a realized taxation. 

And the question is, does that realized taxation provide a better result, for the  individual as compared to the 5% taxation under the foreign investment fund  rules. So this is a little bit of wait and see, but we are making positive steps. 

Erik: Is there any consideration for making it a 5% cap so that you would have  a 5% maximum? 

But if it's more than that, you don't get taxed on it,  

Graham: so that cap will still stay. So the old rules will still stay. It will just be  more a realized basis. We have suggested a cap. At this stage there is no cap.  And I guess to give the example. In comparison, I talked about the Apple  shares. 

So under the proposals, as they are right now, you would essentially be taking  an individual who's moved to New Zealand. They've done their four years, so  we're now a full New Zealand tax resident. So at the end of those four years. A  value on the Apple shares would be made, which would just be on the date, and  then if that individual sold those Apple shares, the difference between the  opening and closing value would be taxed at the New Zealand marginal tax rate. 

But only 70% of that gain is actually taxed. I guess in a roundabout way, the tax  rate on the gain is about 27%, which is, still relatively high. But you need to  take into account that the valuation of it is the date that the individual finishes  their four year tax holiday, and when they sell the gains. 

So the cost base could actually be quite, low in comparison to what the  individual bought the Apple shares at some time ago. 

Erik: Let's imagine that international high net worth private investor from  Europe, from Canada, someplace other than Japan and the United States where  they don't have to deal with citizenship based taxation, they move to New  Zealand. 

What about the part of, you're still taxable obviously on your income in New  Zealand? What about other taxes? Terms of real estate taxes social security  taxes, Medicare taxes Etc. What is the tax regime like if you were considering  moving to New Zealand to live there and be a private investor there? 

Graham: Pretty simple, Eric. We don't have, any of the payroll, social security.  We don't have any real estate, capital gains tax. We do have, real estate taxes in  terms of local councils. From a, I guess an insurance point of view you are to  what we call a CC and that will come out of your wages, essentially. 

Or if you're a contractor you make the payment yourself to the government. And  that is to co that covers you for, personal. And also business injury outside of 

that really we just have a form of sales tax called GST guess it's just really a  simple system, Eric.  

Erik: It certainly I think is a fantastic opportunity for people who can live  anywhere, who derive most of their income from investments and are not  burdened by being Japanese or American and having the the citizenship based  taxation. It's one of the most beautiful countries in the world. Fantastic place to  be, and at least for the first four years, all of your offshore income from capital  gains, from interest, from dividends, whatever is completely tax free. I don't  think most people know about that. You heard it first here on Macrovoices. 

Folks. Graham, I can't thank you enough for a terrific interview, but before I let  you go. Please tell our listeners how they could contact your firm if they're  interested in learning more about the tax implications of either just getting the  AIP visa or investing in New Zealand or moving to New Zealand and being a  private investor based in New Zealand. 

Graham: Yeah, thank you Eric. It's been a pleasure to be on your show and in a  hope I'll being able to distill some of the matters around taxation. Look, we've  been doing this for about 25 years. We've got a team of people that help  investors from all around the world move to New Zealand. 

If people do want to get in contact for a discussion, please go to  Newzealand.acclime.com, and my details will be on there. Or alternatively I'm  on LinkedIn under Graham Lawrence. I'd be really happy to help you, think  about. What this means in terms of New Zealand. 

And once again, Eric, thanks for being on your show.  

Erik: You're very welcome, Graham, and we tremendously appreciate your  perspective. Listeners, stay tuned. We've got one more interview coming up  with Brendan Goodwin, who is a realtor slash lawyer slash jack of all trades and  concierge to high net worth in individuals migrating to or considering migrating  to New Zealand. That's coming up next. 

Erik: Joining me now is Brendan Goodwin. Brendan, your background and  career history is a little bit confusing. Why don't you walk us through it?  

Brendan: Eric, thanks for having me on the show. Yeah, so I'm a Auckland  born and bred, and I actually started my career as a lawyer, which is a little bit  unusual. I practiced property law with DLA Piper in New Zealand, Australia,  and Auckland.

So I spent a lot of time on the legal instruction side of commercial real estate  transactions before I ever actually sold a house. About a decade ago, I moved  into the family business at Auckland, which is good ones. A multigenerational  real estate firm, but over time I've specialized more and more in high-end  property and I'm looking after international clients. 

Who are trying to make New Zealand home either part-time or full-time. So  that's ultimately led to what I focus on now, which is dedicated offering for high  networth clients under my new brand called Unique, which has felt a little  differently. UNIQ  

Erik: I certainly can attest personally that you approach real estate quite a bit  differently than most realtors I've encountered. 

In the interest of full disclosure, I do wanna let our listeners know that I do have  a business relationship with Brendan when I was looking to set a second home  in Auckland. I I ended up meeting Brandon. He told me basically what I was  looking for didn't exist in the market, but he thought it would in about six  months, he went out of his way to basically. 

Call in a favor with a developer he knew. He showed me a penthouse that was, I  think it's probably the most elaborate penthouse in Auckland, if not the entire  country. A little bit overkill for what I was looking for, but he set up a short  term lease on that property for me, even though it wasn't listed for for rent, it  was only for sale as a holdover until I could find the property I was actually  interested in. 

Turned out I never got to stay in that amazing penthouse because he was able to  accelerate the availability of the property that was a fit. So I definitely, my, my  hat's off to you, Brendan, for making that all come together. I never got to stay  in the cool penthouse. But other than that, it worked out fine. 

Brendan: Yeah. Yeah. And it's still available for sale, just quietly. But yeah,  anyway, yeah, it was a good experience.  

Erik: So I want to get into what really is going on in terms of this people  flocking to New Zealand. To my surprise, I thought it was gonna be about this  tax holiday thing and people being interested. 

For that reason, Mark Williams told us in the first interview, no, that's really not  it. Almost nobody that he encounters is coming for that reason, most people are  coming because, it's a beautiful. Full countryside, English speaking, first world, 

country and so forth, and they're setting up a backup plan, having a place for  them and their families to have a lifetime call option on residency, which is  fairly easy to obtain with this new active investor plus Visa. 

You have the benefit though, of talking to people, not when they're considering  this, but after they've already done it and they've come to New Zealand and you  find out what their reactions are, tell us a little bit about who's doing this and  also with respect to what they're doing, give us the rundown for people who  don't know the country well, north Island, south Island what's it all about? 

For people who are considering real estate, what are their options?  

Brendan: Geez, Eric, that's a good question. How long do we have? I guess I've  been lucky enough to travel a little bit globally and New Zealand really is a  stunning. Even by global standards. So essentially we are three small islands  located in the Pacific Ocean. 

We are never far away from the water and obviously a lot of stunning coastline.  So recreational boating, scuba diving and fishing are all world class. But we  have snow cap mountains with amazing hiking trails or lakes. Rivers for  freshwater fishing. So there really is something for everyone who loves the  outdoors. 

And the convenient part for me, when you think about, big larger countries like  the US we've got a, a huge continent. You can pretty much drive the length of  New Zealand and under about 30 hours. You can drive from Auckland three  hours depending on the season and be either skiing or snowboarding or deep  game fishing up north. 

So I think that's a pretty unique feature and Stunning part of the country. But  ultimately I think there's, New Zealand does have a few layers. 'cause I think  probably a lot of people globally just think of the natural beauty. But actually,  we do have true city living in, in Auckland that, that's our commercial hub to a  lesser extent, Wellington and Christchurch. 

But in, in Auckland, you have a very international walkable lifestyle. You've  got city and harbor apartments, you've got character inner city homes. So I think  that's something that could appeal to a lot of your listeners. And then you've got  the lifestyle destinations. People might have heard of places like Queenstown,  Wanika, parts of the Bay Islands, Waihiki Islands.

That's where you see the classic postcard, scenery, lakefront Vineyards, big  Land holdings, coastal estates. You raise an interesting question. So in terms of  is it restricted, to purchase those types of properties for overseas people? The  short answer is no. So New Zealand has a concept called sensitive land, which  simply means some types of property, like larger rural blocks, coastal land, or  islands like Wahiki, which is a 45 minute ferry from downtown Auckland, need  extra consent if you're an overseas person. But that doesn't mean they're off  limits, you can still buy them. There just is an overseas investment office  consent process, which you'll hear people referred to as OIO Consent. But most  high-end urban homes and places like Central Auckland aren't classified as  sensitive at all. So many buyers proceed without any additional approvals. 

If someone is looking at coastal estate a vineyard, a lifestyle block for example  or anything on Waihi the OI consent is required and we help clients navigate  that from day one. So the takeaway really in that sense is simply awareness, not  alarm. The rules aren't a barrier, they're just part of the buying premium off an  iconic New Zealand property.  

Erik: Brandon, as someone who's very well traveled, I can certainly attest that  New Zealand is the only place I've ever been that really outdoes Hawaii in terms  of natural beauty. 

It really is a strikingly beautiful place for people who are interested in that kind  of real estate. There's lots and lots of it. Personally, I happen to be more of a city  dweller myself, so I can't speak from personal experience to to living in that part  of New Zealand or wanting to. And, despite the fact that Mark said that's  probably what most people are are looking for. 

I'd like to talk a little bit more about this idea of mine, which. I don't think the  offshore world knows about this tax deal yet. The combination of the four year  blanket tax holiday where there's no tax, whatever on your offshore income, and  then after that, it's capped at 5% of your gains under these FIF rules. 

Now it doesn't help Americans or Japanese very much, but for everybody else.  All the people I met in Hong Kong, the guys that were either high high-end  private investors or running hedge funds and so forth, they moved to Hong  Kong and Singapore because of the territorial tax doctrine, not having to pay tax  on. 

Offshore sourced income. There's a huge community there, and I think frankly,  that's the reason it costs 50 million US to buy a decent apartment in Singapore is  because so much wealth has moved in because of Singapore's golden Visa 

program. I think. Frankly, the New Zealand's program is pretty darn close to as  good as Singapore's, and it's an English speaking first world country that's more  beautiful than Hawaii. 

It's an amazing deal, and from the sense I get from Mark, either I'm the only  person who thinks that or a lot of other people haven't figured it out yet. Out yet.  So what's your take? You talk to people after they've come to New Zealand,  after they're down this process. Is that part of this or is it just unknown so far? 

Brendan: Yeah, from my experience it's unknown. And I guess one of the  challenges that we have for those, involved with the AIP Pathway program is to  really get it out there into forums like this with people like you who are able to  understand how much of a good opportunity this is, not just in relation to tax but  lifestyle. 

As you say. We, we've got a beautiful, generally a pretty beautiful climate and  it's a really big opportunity, which when I think it gets out there, will potentially  cause some issues with the amount of stock. And that is in the market to meet  the demand. So I think it's a really interesting time at the very beginning of the  program. 

Erik: The other thing that occurs to me is Australia, a couple of years ago,  canned their significant investor visa program, which was Australia's golden  visa. In terms of English speaking first world countries, where else can you go  besides New Zealand to get a a golden visa that allows a path to permanent  residency the way that you can get in New Zealand? 

I'm not sure if there is any.  

Brendan: Yeah, Australia closing what they called their SIV has definitely  made New Zealand more interesting in the English speaking world. Particularly  for people who like the idea of this part of the world and wanna safe. Rule of  law of jurisdiction. I from what I hear from clients, which I guess is where  you're asking me on the coalface, very few people will say, Hey, I'm moving to  New Zealand solely for tax. 

Normally it starts with lifestyle, sort of safety. Education for children is a big  one. Political stability, quality of life, and then the tax and the investment  framework reinforces the move. Once they learn more about what is globally a  pretty good. Financial framework as you've identified yourself, and I think for  the European and Asian investors, once their tax advisors explain those 

transitional rules and how New Zealand treats offshore investment income, it  becomes a much more compelling package. 

And I guess, you touch upon the Americans in the Japanese as your market  discussed, that picture is different, but they're still very active because the value  of the lifestyle and that diversification. That has value. So I would say Mark is  right, that sort of people don't lead with the tax conversation. 

It absolutely features in the decision making for a lot of families once they dig  deeper.  

Erik: I'm going to posit a hypothesis that New Zealand has a serious marketing  problem because I don't think that the community of high net worth global  investors who have based themselves in Singapore and Hong Kong, and much  less so Hong Kong now because of the PRC complications. 

I don't think they know about this because if they did, I don't know why you  would be paying 50 million US for a small apartment in Singapore when there's  a better deal here. And I suppose the counter argument to that is Hong Kong and  Singapore are both major financial centers. So there's a lot of people who came  from banking. 

In those financial centers and are staying in the town that they know. But  frankly, I met a lot of people in Hong Kong Europeans, Canadians people who  were able to relocate and escape from their home country's tax regime to a much  more favorable tax regime with territorial tax jurisdiction. 

And I think maybe because New Zealand is not technically a territorial tax  jurisdiction it doesn't get considered. I didn't. Know about it. I was curious as to  why Peter Thiel and other people were relocating to New Zealand. I had  absolutely no idea that I would ever consider it myself until I got curious about  this. 

For the sake of this, we needed something to fill the year end special on  Macrovoices. This year we did nuclear energy last year. I was looking for  something to do when I found out about the difference in quality of life and.  Cost of living. The penthouse that you showed me at 51 Albert Street in  Auckland is ridiculously expensive by New Zealand standards, but it's dirt  cheap by Hong Kong or Singapore standards. 

The thing that I think you've got a problem with though, if I imagine that  community coming to Auckland is. I think a lot of those people like myself are 

city dwellers. They're people who are used to living in a big city with walking  distance to lots of really good restaurants and so forth. I'm actually very  impressed with the restaurants in Auckland based on the size of the city, but. 

In terms of housing you showed me one very impressive penthouse. How many  more of those do you have? Because if this was Hong Kong and I said, look, I  wanna see at least, 30th floor or higher luxury condo and, priced it, say 3  million US or higher. They would say it's gonna take six months to look at all  those properties. 

I think you could look at all of the properties like that in Auckland in about six  minutes or maybe six hours. How much inventory is there? Could you support a  community of let's say, metropolitan, the high net worth investors? Because  frankly, I think that once this story breaks, maybe this podcast will be the  catalyst. 

I think that if people discover the tax deal, you're gonna see an influx of the  same people that moved to Hong Kong for that reason.  

Brendan: Yeah and I agree with you. I think that once the offshore world really  understands the combination of the AIP pathway, the transitional tax rules and  general quality of life proposition, New Zealand should be on a lot more  shortlist than it is, for city dwellers. 

Sorry. Like yourself, people are used to Hong Kong and Singapore and London.  Auckland is interesting because it gives you, a reasonable sized city. We're not  huge, but it has lovely food, good restaurants, as you have attest to, the public  transport connectivity is improving in the city, and it's only 20 or 30 minutes  from beaches and vineyards. 

It's not trying to be Hong Kong. It's a different scale, but that's exactly the point  at the end of the day. So I guess on the inventory piece I am a little bit nervous  around, hopefully people do engage with us around moving to New Zealand  through this pathway and I think there's gonna be a real shortage because as you  said, right now, there's one full floor luxury apartment on the market and it's  sitting around 8 million USD.  

And behind that. There's, part floors or there's apartments being built on the city  fringe. But I think there's gonna be, I'm hoping a shortage of stock because this  is gonna be such a popular program, which will be a good problem to have. But  I think that marketing piece in getting it out so they understand the opportunity 

in New Zealand, not just from, the tax implications and the financial structure,  but the quality of life. 

I think this, there should be a really. Sound based to, to launch this program or  encourage it to keep growing.  

Erik: I suppose something else that I don't know is my own personal preference  as a city dweller. I'm not sure the other people who are in Hong Kong and  Singapore for those reasons, share that value. 

They might prefer to be in, an oceanfront home someplace. There are a few of  those in Secco and in Hong Kong, but it's it's quite expensive on that side of the  island. What about the not way down in Queenstown and snowboarding  country, but around Auckland? Is there plenty of housing, high end housing? 

If you did have an influx of high net worth migrants, is there enough inventory  to support that outside of the city?  

Brendan: Look, I think a lot of the high-end real estate in New Zealand and in  and around Auckland particularly, it's around those networks and having  someone plugged into to unveil those off market opportunities. 

Short answer, there's probably gonna be a struggle of in inventory, but there's  increasingly developments that are people, the listers might have heard of the  golf enthusiast. There's a couple of becoming now pretty world famous golf  courses called Tara Iti and Te Arai You know, there's more and more  development. 

There's helicopter rise from Auckland. Direct almost to those golf courses  where there's international standards and there's an ever-growing presence of  those type of properties. But I think, the window for people to be able to  purchase those type of properties is definitely closing. 

And for our Australian friends or Singaporean friends, or even the expats, Kiwis  that might be listening, this change is coming legally where people under this  program will be able to purchase one residential property. At a minimum of $5  million, and I think we've already touched on it, that window is closing and the  reality of what's happening in the market, I can tell you for certain, there are  already real estate transactions that are happening that are subject only to the  change of the rule where one of these people down the pathway can buy a  property over 5 million.

For those that are considering, that's changed in the new year when this airs, the  sooner people can reach out. The better because I think the stock is gonna  become a problem. There is not enough properties to service a potential surge.  So I think the best way to either grab that opportunity is to reach out as soon as  possible because I think there's gonna be fewer and fewer good quality  properties to purchase. 

Erik: That's an interesting point 'cause when I heard Mark's interview I was  thinking, boy, come April 1st when they pass this new law, you better move  quick if you want to get property in New Zealand. 'cause it'll get, I should say, if  you want to get city property, it seems like there's plenty of countryside in New  Zealand and I don't think you're gonna run out of that. 

I do think you're gonna have an inventory problem in downtown Auckland. So  you are saying it's not a question of hurry up as soon as you get to April 1st,  you're saying? Put an offer on a property that's contingent on that law passing  and lock it up in a contract before the law changes. Is that, did I get that right? 

Brendan: That, that's what I'm saying. So it's December, 2025 for those  listening and those contracts are already happening subject to the law changing.  So for anyone who's considering it or thinking about it, when you think about an  investment of, I think just under 3 million USD to get into the program, and  then you're looking at properties, which as you say globally. 

Really dirt cheap. When you think about the US dollar currency and those other  global currencies, I think there's a real good chance that people are gonna miss  out if they don't act really quickly.  

Erik: Brandon, I am still convinced that there is just an untold or unbroken  story here, and I hope that this podcast will break it, which is for that global  investor community, and especially if you trade US markets and you're living in  Hong Kong or Singapore, I've been there before. 

Trying to get up at three o'clock in the morning to catch that last hour of trading  in New York. That all happens late morning in Auckland. So the time zone is  way better for trading US markets if you're a trader and it's a way better quality  of life. The real estate is dirt. It's not dirt cheap. 

Compared to other places, but compared to Hong Kong and Singapore, it's dirt  cheap. I really think that this tax deal for non-Japanese and Americans is gonna  bring all of the Canadians and Europeans that I met in Hong Kong, many of  which have already moved to Singapore flooding in. And frankly, I'm fascinated 

by the idea of a market to create, I'm thinking of a residential tower that is  designed to accommodate that community in Auckland and frankly, if the influx  of high net worth investors because of the tax reason, which is, nobody seems to  be doing that yet. I think it's 'cause nobody knows about it. 

If that influx happens, dude, I'll partner with you to build that building.  

Brendan: Look and I think what you're describing is very plausible, right? The  same type of people who moved to Hong Kong 20 years ago because it was a  well run territorial tax jurisdiction, and who now want this plan B, that's  geographically boring in the best possible way, we'll eventually look at New  Zealand very seriously. 

And to touch on what you mentioned before, if the government keeps the  settings sensible. Particularly around FIF in the absence of a broad capital gains  tax, then yes, I can see a future that is defined where a global community of  investors who base themselves and then around Auckland live very well, and  they run their offshore affairs from here. 

You, you raise a funny point around time zone because I think for active  investors and traders, that time zone is actually a quiet superpower. You can  trade US markets from here and still be functional human being the next day  you are not annihilating your sleep to watch the market open. And then when  you wake up, you're in objectively a pretty easy place to live. 

So it's a nice combination. That tower concept is something that is really  something edit, that, that tail concept you mentioned is exactly where I see this  going. If the material the demand materializes, it's about. Something that was be  built to specific design requirements, a bespoke offering for people that have,  full double floor residences, lock up and leave Security concierge services  designed for frequent international travel. 

Connectivity to the rest of those amazing places that we've talked about, the golf  courses and the ski resorts and, who knows, maybe a pretty cool helicopter  hanger on the roof for those that are inclined to that sort of travel. But yeah, if  we get a dozen like-minded financially qualified people aligned with that sort of  vision, then I think we could definitely get a building marketed to a very  defined audience. 

And that's the sort of projects that I think Auckland. Has the opportunity to, to  harness and create and like you say, create a hub of people of like-minded  opportunities. 

Erik: I've lived in a building like you're describing before, where it wasn't just  the penthouse, but every floor was a full floor apartment. 

And it, it really created a community of, people of similar high net worth who,  who worked well together. And the helicopter idea is amazing because the  traffic from the Auckland International Airport is not exactly ideal. That's a five  or 10 minute helicopter ride with helitrans. 

But the thing is, the heli trans heliport is a good 15 minutes outside of the CBD  if you had the helipad on the roof, so the concierge in the building could just get  ahold of Heli Trans and say. Pick my resident up in 15 minutes and take him to  

the airport. That would be at a pretty amazing lifestyle, and the cost of that  building compared to Singapore or Hong Kong would be nothing compared to  those other markets. 

I think it's a really fascinating idea. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I don't  think anybody knows about this yet because there's a lot of people that go in  Singapore and Hong Kong used to have a a golden visa program called CIES  that was decommissioned years ago. And frankly, with. 

The PRC kind of taking over Hong Kong. I don't think anybody really wants to  go there anymore. But Singapore's program which is called GIP, is still  extremely busy. That's I think a $25 million golden visa if you invest in a fund  as opposed to 5 million in New Zealand. 

And then the cost of real estate here is so much less. I think probably the reason  it's not on anybody's radar is technically speaking, it's not a territorial tax  jurisdiction, but when you consider that there's basically no broad based gains  tax, so what you're paying. 

Taxon is your global interest in dividend income. That's not that big of a deal  for most investors, and it certainly is possible to structure your investments to  optimize around that. So I'll be very fascinated to see what kind of reaction we  get to this podcast. I think there, there's a real potential for a significant influx of  of high net worth international investors who would come here for the same  reason as you said that they went to Hong Kong 20 years ago. 

Brendan: Yeah. And my role in all of this is essentially to make it easier for  people who are thinking seriously about New Zealand to help them understand  their options on the ground, from where to live, what to buy, and who to speak  to, introduce 'em to the right people in relation to tax advice and lawyers, and  how to buy a boat.

And, I shared with you a contact to, to buy a car because I think a big part of  any transition to a new country is about. Dealing with trusted people and let's be  honest, not a lot of people have a lot of time these days, and when you're based  offshore, before you move, having someone locally to help navigate that and  save you time is an essential part of making that journey. More palable or even  enjoyable, which is I think we, you've got to over the last few weeks. So I think  that's an important part of that connectivity, that trust network, having someone  plugged into those off market opportunities. So I'm on your page. I'm excited  about this. I think there's a lot of opportunity, not just for Auckland and the  country, but also for people that are listening to the podcast that are thinking,  Hey, where do I go next? 

Or What are the other opportunities to have a nice quality of life for my family  when, let's be honest, globally. Things are a little bit shaky. The good thing  about New Zealand is we're so far away, and that's probably the first time that  people have seen that in such a positive light. And with air travel the way it is  now, we're a lot closer to the rest of the world. 

I'm helping people at the moment from the US and they're getting here in less  than half a day. So I think that whole piece for people around thinking that we're  so isolated, actually we're not as isolated as you might think. And I think once  people get here and they experience that lifestyle and that community, as you  say, I think it will be high on, or it should be high on a lot of people's wishlists  of where to base themselves.  

Erik: That's an important point that you just made, and I guess most of our  listeners probably already know this, but for anyone who doesn't, the face of  long haul international air travel has changed radically in the last 10 or 15 years  as a result of lay flat seats in first class or in business class. 

Make no mistake traveling to New Zealand from anywhere in economy class  sucks. It's just not a fun experience. But I've gotten to the point, Brendan, where  I actually much prefer a 12 or 13 hour flight over an eight hour flight because  on an eight hour flight you don't really get to sleep. And I should actually  correct that statement. 

I prefer a 13 hour flight with prescription sleeping pills over shorter flights. And  the reason is with lay flat seats, you just sleep through the whole thing. I'm  awake for the first hour on my laptop, checking email. I'm awake for the last  hour and a half, two hours to make sure I'm ready to put my sleep back and tray  table forward so I don't get yelled at for landing.

Everything that happens for those, 12 hours in between I'm zonked out on on  Ambien. It is so much better than it was 15 years ago. So I really am sold on  this and like I said, I had no idea until I started researching this podcast episode  that I would actually end up with a second home in New Zealand. 

And I'm actually recording this episode from Auckland New Zealand in real  estate that Brendan helped put me in. So it's it's been a real discovery for me and  I'm gonna be fascinated to see what kind of reaction we get because, maybe the.  People in Hong Kong and Singapore feel like they would only want to be in a  place that is a major banking center. 

Although, frankly, if you're running the kind of fund that most of the guys that I  knew in Hong Kong were running I, I think it's much nicer here.  

Brendan: You have been a really interesting test case or I guess scenario of  people that were probably less than super positive or motivated about the move.  People make different moves for different reasons and I've had clients that have  come to New Zealand from all around the world for various motivations, but I  think once people get here, they really do enjoy the environment and the  lifestyle and the way things move relatively easily through we're not a perfect  country by any means, but I think globally, again, what we've thought is  something that people should look really strongly at and all those reasons you've  highlighted for those high net worth individuals. 

Again, the 21 day scenario of people coming through the country, we can help  put together a curated. 21 day tour to give people a feel for all those parts of  New Zealand that they might be interested in, in, in exploring, before deciding,  Hey, look, yeah we would like to make New Zealand a second home or a  primary place and we would like to buy a property. 

And one of the other things that I do, which in New Zealand is not.  Commonplace is I'm a buyer's agent, so I represent the interest of those people  coming in to the country. And that right now I'm acting for various nationalities.  Back to your point earlier in the conversation, I'm helping someone from China,  I'm helping someone from Switzerland, I'm helping someone that's just coming  back from Ireland. 

I'm helping someone that's from the us. So I think more and more having people  and networks that you can plug into quickly. Will make that experience so much  easier. So yeah, I'm really excited about the opportunity for New Zealand and I  think we should be sitting in a very different space talking about this maybe in  12 months time and looking at what impact, hopefully Macrovoices has had on 

this program, which I think is a really exciting, smart, and essentially well  played out program, like you say, so long as they keep it sensible and don't  make huge changes to the taxation piece, then we should be good to go. 

Erik: That was something that I was concerned about from Graham's interview  is even though the tax holiday doesn't really do much for Americans and  Japanese, although it's extremely valuable to everybody else, the FIF rules  around capping capital gains tax at 5% is important to me long term for sure. 

If they were to. Undo that and turn it into a realized capital gains tax, which  sounded like maybe is under consideration that would completely sabotage the  whole thing that would guarantee that everybody moves out after the first four  years. What have you heard about that? Are they actually dumb enough to think  about doing something like that? 

'cause frankly, I was a little bit disappointed in the government. We reached out  to them several times to offer them the first interview on this episode, and we  couldn't get a reaction out of them. I think that they're not really that good at  marketing.  

Brendan: And I've had heard that from various people coming in that are high  net worth, that similar to yourselves, they just didn't realize the opportunity that  was here. 

So I think that's one of the areas that the government can improve. And I know  that there's a lot of people putting in a lot of time and effort, but ultimately, if  people don't hear the story as clearly as what we are talking about with Graham  and Mark, I think that there's gonna be really. A lot of trouble punching through  the noise that's potentially out there with a lot of these countries trying to attract  the high net worth. 

You touched on the American and Japanese clients, and even though that tax  holiday isn't as transformative for them, as I said, there's still strong interest.  They're looking for political stability, English speaking jurisdiction, a safe base  for family access to good education. So I think New Zealand is often about  diversification and quality of life rather than headline tax. 

Implications, but as you've said, they're actually globally very good. They may  not be the, essentially the best, but those other jurisdictions come with lifestyle  differences or you don't get to drive 30 minutes to the beach, into the pristine  water you do in New Zealand. So I think they may keep their primarily fi, 

financial institutions in the US or Japan but they want a well, structured  foothold. 

That they can genuinely call home and have a happy time. So I think that's how.  That's how ace up the sleeve for sure. Down in New Zealand.  

Erik: As you were talking a minute ago, I realized I should have asked you  earlier, let's imagine the high net worth investor who is contemplating, maybe  they're motivated by the tax holiday, maybe they're just motivated by the fact  that it is an amazingly beautiful place, and they come to you and they're saying,  okay, Brendan, I don't know anything about New Zealand other than I've heard  it's a beautiful place. 

I don't share Eric's. City dweller obsession with having to live in walking  distance to lots of restaurants. I wanna see the smorgasbord. Can you  recommend, since I've, I'm gonna do this 21 day thing, I'm gonna get my AIP  visa I've gotta do 21 days visit of New Zealand and I wanna optimize that to see  as much of the country as I can to get a sense of if I was ever to move here,  where I would move to. 

So I wanna do the tour of the country for the purpose of seeing all the different  lifestyle options from. Golf courses in the Bay of Islands all the way down to  ski and snowboard retreats in Queenstown. What's the itinerary? What would  you recommend for someone if they just wanted to see the whole thing? 

Brendan: Yeah, look, so what I do essentially is act as a single point of contact  for those high net worth families who wanna explore New Zealand seriously. So  luckily we are past that post COVID. Era where or during COVID era where  you just had to buy from overseas. But now we have the benefit of, yeah, that  practically looking around for 21 days. 

So what I help people do is essentially tailor a tour. I might not be the person  driving the bus or driving the plane, but we try and work together with the, with  essentially at that point, are a guest, what are they interested in, what do they  like to see? What things, so it's not a, it's not a cookie cutter. 

Type operation that we run for our business. But it's about understanding do  they like golf? Do they like fishing? 

And try and tailor a package, which let's be honest, sells New Zealand in its best  possible light for that particular person. And then moving forward from that, it's 

that sort of trusted, safe pair of hands, whether it's, a concierge type service to  say, Hey, if this is what you need to do, go and speak to this person. 

I help introduce people to trusted tax advisors. You heard from Mark and the  team around immigration, but there's banking, there's private healthcare. There's  cars, there's boats private shifts. I even help people with things like  memberships and relocation, logistics. So these are all the pieces of the puzzle  that when you probably look at a move for yourself or your family. 

Even though they may have done it many times, it can still be intimidating. It  can still be time consuming, and you're still not sure if you're talking to the right  people or paying too much money. So I think the idea of what I do for this type  of client is essentially instead of having to deal with what, five or six providers  across various industries, they can come to one place and then I can curate or  orchestrate that for them. 

Typically when they're overseas. I do a lot of. Teams and Zoom calls with  videos at various times of the night to help those clients. Make that transition  and coming up in, in this Christmas holidays I've got clients coming over from  the US where we're organizing what cars they're gonna drive, how they're  getting over to Wahiki. 

In that particular case, I had a, a Mercedes-Benz parked in the, of the basement  of a client 12 months ago because he arrived on Boxing Day and had a pregnant  wife and two other children. Just trying to make things as smooth as we  possibly can for people to have the best experience. Is where we position our  sales under that unique brand and cater to these types of people that we are  hopefully gonna see more and more of in the near future. 

Erik: If anyone wants to reach out to Brendan particularly if you're interested in  that idea of a themed building just for an investor community, which I think is a  fascinating idea, it's Brendan, at unique UNIQ.nz or nz if you're American. In  closing, if anyone listening decides to pursue an Active Investor Plus Visa,  please tell 'em you heard about it on Macrovoices. 

As I mentioned, we were a little bit disappointed that the government didn't  respond when we in invited them to participate in this podcast, and particularly  tell 'em not to screw this up by changing the the 5% FIF rule, because that  would completely sabotage what I think is a fantastic deal that I think has the  potential.

To attract a huge amount of capital into New Zealand and to really maybe  change the face of Auckland's business community because I saw what  happened in Hong Kong, all the people who moved in because of the the tax  opportunity that existed there. As far as I can tell, New Zealand is a better deal  when you consider the cost of housing and the lifestyle and everything else.  Anyway, we'll see what happens. That's gonna be a wrap for our 2025 New  Year's Holiday special. We'll be back to our regular show format next week  when Patrick Ceresna and I will welcome a regular format guest to the show. 

Happy holidays everyone.